Bush Administration and Stupid Ideas..

[Slaughter]

I'm sorry I just have to rant for a minute.. What is with the Bush family, do they love to go to war with Irag, or just war period? I mean come on.. is he really trying to follow in daddy's foot steps? This has to be the dumbest administration in the course of my life.. which, I know, isn't that long, only on its 4th administration since I was born in the regan era.. but I am in no way republican.. I for one do not support Big Business, as I would rather see Microsoft come tumbling down than to submit to their crappy OS for ever more.. GW has to be the stupidest president in my life time, as well as this administration.. his dad was better, Regan was the best republican in my life time (although I don't remember that administration much).. I'm sure there are people who would argue with me.. but War on Iraq is the dumbest thing we could possibly do.. I just hope colonies on the Moon start soon, cause if this "war" breaks out, I don't want to be here for what could be WW3.. Nostradamus predicted WW3 between 2002-2003 if I remember correctly... with the end of the world coming in 2003.. I don't want to see this.. And there is only one way for us to avoid this prediction, thats to get Bussh and his administration to pull their heads out of their rectums. If there is a draft, I will be one of the first to head north.. I mean, I consider myself exceptionally patriotic(exspecially when there is people around here that wear rebel flag shirts, and tote that flag endlessly.. and Ohio is in the NORTH.. me and one of my friends made fun of a guy in taco bell once because he had a rebel flag shirt on once.. My friend said it correctly when he said - "That shirt offended me, of course I'm gonna say something about it.") Anyway, This war against Iraq offends me.. and I'm gonna speak my head off about this.. We may have the technology.. but I have friends who they would send over there, one of which is just as skilled in computers as me.. theres nothing we can't figure out when we work together, but hes in the marines.. and the last thing I want to see is my best friend sent off to a rediculous, uncalled for "war", just becasue the leader of the other country is "evil". Who are we to judge who is good and evil? We are no one, we are just as corrupt as the rest of them.. and this nation will be damned for this "war".. if we go into this "war", I will no longer be as patriotic as I once was... in fact the closer we are getting to this "war" I find myslef drifting further and further away.. I say, at least, finish the business with Osama before starting everything else.. Not everyone is going to be like us, we can't stuff our beliefs down other peoples throats like we did in Afghanistan.. I don't think our Allies will even be with us if we go guns blazking into Iraq, its too close to them, and way too close if the nuclear weapons get involved.. It'll be east vs. West on this one.. a Global Civil War of sorts.. Of course, most of this is purely speculation.. but you never know.. and I still don't support storming into Iraq and killing people..

I'm done now, feel free to leave feedback.. I'm done for now.. but there will be more if Congress approves the Bush administrations move to declare war on Iraq ragardless of the UN.. since thats something they are pushing for today(thursday)..

[Slaughter]

Z - what was your old quote in your signature.. I know it something to do with politics of sorts..

[Slaughter]

BTW, I don't mean to offend ANYONE, I just wanted to get some steam out about this whole thing and possibly get some feedback on what all of you think..

[Zorro]

If my history serves me correctly, a man by the name of Adolf Hitler was nice enough to send Churchill a letter in 1938 to let him know that he had no intention of invading all of Europe... just Czechoslovakia... no big whoop... That's right... and it didn't take Churchill 12 months to have to declare war on Germany after he'd overrun a few countries at that point. I say let's give Saddam 12 months to prepare for war... Who's with me!?

[Zorro]

Oh, and the quote was:

If you're not a liberal at the age of 25, you have no heart; if you're not conservative by 35, you have no brain...

It is incorrectly attributed to Winston Churchill in about a million different places. Fact is that Churchill started life as a staunch conservative and then moved to the left in his latter years. Wouldn't that seem to be a bit of a blow to himself, then? All the same, it's a good quote, and I like it...

[[AK]Palooka]

Being a guy who is always eager to steer good folks back on course when they have lost their way, allow me to give you some direction and respond to the mind-numbing vitriol that you have put forth, although I scarcely know where to start.

First, let's talk about the Bush history with Iraq and the Butcher of Baghdad. HW Bush intervened when Iraq invaded Kuwait because the latter is our ally. Any ally of America that is ruthlessly attacked by a crazed, bloodthirsty dictator can rest assured that the United States will come to its rescue. The current Bush administration, by going to war against Iraq in the near future, will be saving a lot more than one small country and its oil. We know that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction, including biological and chemical weapons. Further, we know he is frantically working to either build or obtain a nuclear bomb if he doesn't have one or more already. There is evidence from reputable sources, including Yossef Bodansky (one of the premier experts on the subject), that Hussein has given aid to Osama bin Laden by lending the talents of Iraqi scientists in order to build nuclear devices for his terror network. If Hussein can afford to help other terrorists obtain nukes, that strongly suggests to me, at least, that he may already have them, himself. There is also much evidence that there has already been a proliferation of nuclear weapons among terrorist networks and "Axis of Evil" nations. We know that Russia is missing roughly 200 nukes, many in the form of suitcase bombs, which are, obviously, very easy to smuggle into desirable target areas. Many people in the know believe that the Russian mafia has sold nukes to the likes of bin Laden and possibly Hussein. With this in mind, the question is, will Saddam use nukes against us if he does, in fact, have them in his possession?

Saddam has a long and horrible history which leads most reasonable, common-sense people to believe that he would probably not hesitate to hit America proper or Americans abroad (or Israel) with the most devastating blow he could possibly muster -- that of a nuclear bomb or two. Anyone who doubts that he is a genuinely evil man has either not given the matter much thought or been brainwashed by the peaceniks. Let me present you with the facts. In the thirty years that Saddam Hussein has been in power, he has gassed civilians in his own country and committed countless other crimes against humanity, murdered and tortured his critics (a recently leaked video out of Baghdad shows Saddam at a meeting with political adversaries in which he shoots one through the head, himself), endorsed the wonton raping and torture of innocent civilians (Bush mentioned this in his speech to the UN, stating that Saddam's goons rape mothers in front of their children and husbands), sent oodles of cash to the families of Palestinian homicide bombers, horded billions of oil dollars (which are in French banks) while neglecting his starving people, financed terrorist organizations and operations, deceived and defied the wishes of the United Nations Security Council, which he agreed to abide by, and generally made himself the number one obstacle to stability and peace in the Middle East and the rest of the world. He is the Hitler of the 21st Century, plain and simple. I don't know about you, but I am NOT willing to risk the lives of millions of Americans by delaying the attack on Iraq and subsequent elimination of Saddam Hussein. If we do not act preemptively, rest assured that liberals will eventually get their incontrovertible proof that Saddam does indeed have weapons of mass destruction. This will be in the form of countless dead Americans. My girlfriend told me the other day that the prospect of war against Iraq scared her. Well, the prospect of waiting and hoping that Saddam doesn't level a major metropolitan area scares me a lot more.

As far as the Bush administration being the "dumbest administration" and Bush being the "stupidest president," this is all simply nonsense. While I do not personally believe Bush has an intellect on par with some of our brightest political thinkers, he is certainly a smart, well-educated man. Worthless past presidents have proven that it takes more than brains to effectively lead this country. In this regard, Clinton and Carter immediately spring to mind, and the characteristics they lacked, such as resolve, courage, and, at least in Clinton's case, morality, honesty, and decency, GW Bush has in spades. Bush has certainly made more intelligent choices for his administration than Clinton or Carter, and as a result, he is surrounded by some of the best and brightest in the business. Cheney, Rice, Rumsfield, and Powell. This is a peerless lineup if I've ever seen one. Enough said.

Anti-capitalism people are anti-American, as far as I'm concerned. Capitalism is a cornerstone of America equal to liberty and democracy. The day Microsoft goes out of business is the day that we go into a depression that will make the Great Depression seem bullish in comparison.

Once you get into the Nostradamus crap, I don't even know what to say. Did he make several eerie predictions that have supposedly come true according to some folk's interpretations? I guess so, but it's lunacy to decide policy according to his bizarre writings.

There will be no draft. And if there ever is a draft, you'll have to live with your cowardice for the rest of your life. Then again, it didn't stop Bill Clinton from getting to the top.

Your assertion that America has no right to judge who is good or evil because we are as corrupt as any other country proves that you are not the patriot that you say you are. A good American knows that America is the most benevolent and generous super power in the history of civilization. No other nation has done more for the downtrodden of the world. Those in need look to us for help the world over, and we are always the first to offer it. America is the world's beacon of freedom and hope. Is America perfect? Of course not, but it's the greatest country the world has ever seen.

We did not "stuff our beliefs" down the throats of the people of Afghanistan. Rather, we liberated them from the oppression of an evil terrorist regime. Damn us! What kind of evil bastards are we? Any civil rights advocate who is against the war in Afghanistan is a hypocrite. The women of Afghanistan were treated no better than dogs under the Taliban; they were not allowed to work, get an education, show their faces, or even laugh out loud (which would get them mercilessly beaten). Anyone who is interested in civil rights should be rejoicing that America took down the Taliban.

The war in Iraq will continue where HW Bush mistakenly left off, and I'm betting it will be quick and easy. Saddam's military is nowhere near the strength that it enjoyed before the Gulf War, and just as they did then, Iraqi soldiers will surrender en masse. They do not want to die for Saddam Hussein; they hate the man. I think Saddam could be dead in as little as a week (a month at the most) with minimal civilian casualties. With the demise of the tyrannical Butcher of Baghdad, peace in the Middle East will be that much closer. Next stop Iran.

[[AK]Palooka]

Here's an excerpt from the great speech recently delivered by Bush before the UN:

"Saddam Hussein's regime is a grave and gathering danger. To suggest otherwise is to hope against the evidence. To assume this regime's good faith is to bet the lives of millions and the peace of the world in a reckless gamble. And this is a risk we must not take. Delegates to the General Assembly: We have been more than patient. We have tried sanctions. We have tried the carrot of ‘oil for food' and the stick of coalition military strikes. But Saddam Hussein has defied all these efforts and continues to develop weapons of mass destruction. The first time we may be completely certain he has nuclear weapons is when, God forbid, he uses one. We owe it to all our citizens to do everything in our power to prevent that day from coming ... Iraq has answered a decade of U.N. demands with a decade of defiance."

[[AK]Squidly]

I agree with everything Palooka said.

The situation in the Middle East is a *bit* more complicated than the "no war for oil" crowd would have you believe.

The route to first world status for these countries lies in deposing the ruling dictatorships.

The route to stability in the Middle East (and the world) does not lie in allowing Iraq
marshall it's forces (however meager) to launch a first strike at Israel.

Have no fear, Slaughter. The war against Iraq will proceed much the same way
the Gulf War and the Afghanistan conflict did.

1) Initial hand wringing.
2) Moaning about American casualties.
3) Lamenting about our boys in body bags.
4) Sweaty palms over the draft.
5) No War For Oil (tm) marches
6) Decisive, massive military strike by the US.
7) Almost immediate capitulation by the enemy.
8) Surprise, over how easy the whole thing was.
9) Rejoicing by the Iraqi people over their newfound freedom.
10) Lamenting by the deposed Iraqi leadership over the fact that they're ****ed.

[[AK]Hylander]

I almost feel like hugging Palooka! ALMOST!

Slaughter.. in one post you pretty much disagreed with everything I believe in.

I'm a conservative, I'm a capitalist, and if anything ticks me off about our dealings with Iraq is that it has taken this long for us to even start talking about doing anything! I won't even get started with the worst administration in the history of the United States that was the Clinton-Whore years. I'm not a "ditto head" Republican, I do not agree 100% with everything Republican and I don't hate everything Democrats stand for either. I have voted for Democrats/Republicans/Independents. That said... liberal wusses annoy me and I hold them responsible for the mess that is our social ideology and political correctness run wild in todays society. (note: I'm calling no one anything, just a statement)

What Bill posted is pretty much right on about how this would most likely happen. The only downside I can see is "IF" Saddam released poisons or biological agents on his own people (Like he has done before) just in order to attempt to kill American Soldiers.

BTW.. Did you know Quasi Moto predicted 9-11?? (Sorry... I saw my first ever episode of the Sopranos this week! LOLOL)

Anyways...

[[AK]Squidly]

From Lileks.com
====
Why do I get the feeling that those who support "muscular inspection" - i.e., weapons inspectors backed up by military force - are sometimes the same people who tell me that violence doesn't solve anything?

I've been thinking about these newfangled, extra-angry inspections for the last day, and how they'd work. My very own paper had an editorial on the matter that echoes the familiar UN line: we should make sure Saddam has no WMDs, we should leave him in power, and time is on our side. To quote:

Washington must push to get teams of weapons inspectors back in Iraq as soon as possible. The teams are highly professional, well-trained and ready to go. If Saddam has weapons programs, they can find the proof -- provided that they are given unrestricted access to all of Iraq.

Jesus wept. They can find the proof if they're given unrestricted access to all of Iraq! In a best case scenario, this is like saying they can find the needle if they're permitted to search the entire haystack - which, incidentally, is nine miles wide. (And part of it is on fire.) It almost sounds as if they believe the Marines will swarm over every installation simultaneously, kick down doors, and shoot anyone who fumbles with the keys for more than ten seconds.

Let's consider a hypothetical situation here - one inspection of a hundred. It might go something like this:


The day after Iraq admits inspectors, satellite photos show trucks coming in and out of a particular facility - let's call it Compound W. Some trucks are tracked, but lost in a nearby city. Roadblocks are installed at Compound W immediately - but of course
some trucks got through the day before, and the days before that.

It takes a day to inspect all the trucks queued up to leave Compound W. Inspectors open boxes, barrels, crates, etc. The drivers are surly and argumentative, but agree to inspection after the Marines step forward and point their weapons. After a day, the team is ready to move to the installation.

(Since there are operations like this going on all over the country, the team was not able to call for backup to inspect the facility while running the roadblock inspection.)

Day Two. Compound W is entered. It consists of six large warehouses, four smaller storage facilities, two buildings of undetermined purpose, three administrative buildings, four barracks, a barrel field, a motor pool, a small mosque, and a cafeteria. The team
spends the first day on the warehouses. Numbers 1, 2, and 3 contain little of consequence - dried foods, ammunition, spare parts.
But HQ has advised that chemical weapons could be stored in mislabeled boxes or food pouches, so everything must be opened and inspected.

Day Three: Work continues on the contents of the warehouses. Meanwhile, in Warehouse 4, inspectors discover a big metal plate bolted to the floor; the Iraqis cannot adequately explain its purpose. The inspectors radio back to the superiors, alerting them that they may have found an access route to a subterranean area, and a requisition is put in for a jackhammer. (The Marines do not have jackhammers.) They move on to the other warehouses, which are also empty - but, like the others, show signs of recent occupation and a hasty retreat: the offices are in disarray, phones have been removed from walls, file cabinets stand empty.

Day Four: while half of the team works on the floor plate, the other half demands access to the low-slung buildings described in the Iraqi documents as "investigative facilities." These are one- and two-story windowless structures with central air conditioning
units and many ventilation apertures. The Iraqi official in charge of the building says it is was used for administrative and research functions - the government does admit this was a scientific installation, but they worked on synthetic fertilizers.

All of the rooms are locked; the Iraqi liaison does not have the key. He goes to search for the key while the inspection team radios base with the situation. Under the guidelines spelled out by the UN resolution, the Iraqi behavior has not yet risen to the level that would justify force. The details of the situation will be passed up the UN chain of command to see if additional stalling might justify reprisal, and what sort of reprisal that would be; bombing is clearly out of the question, but the team might be allowed to
temporarily detain the Iraqi liaison while a protest is lodged.

The Iraqi returns; he cannot find the key. The team spends the rest of the afternoon taking the doors off manually. The rooms appear to have been used for some sort of scientific purpose - there are special fountains for washing eyes, and ventilation hoods in every lab. The rooms smell of bleach.

Meanwhile, the team at Warehouse 4 has discovered that the plate hides a trough used for changing oil on the installation fleet; it had been sealed when a new oil-changing bay was built in warehouse 6. This team is now reassigned to the labs.

Day Five: work continues on the building the inspectors now dub "the bug lab." Since several the labs are connected, and these doors are unlocked, inspectors are able to explore the building quickly. They find no evidence of biological or chemical weapons.

Day Six: Bug Lab Two looks like the other one; also deserted, also smelling of bleach. There are marks in the floor consistent with the removal of equipment, but the nature of the equipment cannot be ascertained. The warehouses are clear.

Day Seven: the barracks are cleared. Stupendous amounts of porn are confiscated.

Day Eight: the barrel field. Inspectors hope to open all 400 barrels and dump out the contents, but since the facility is near a residential area, fears of contamination quash that notion. The barrels are taken to one of the warehouses; an airtight tent is set
up, and the barrels are examined one at a time. They contain petroleum products. Transport and inspection consumes two days.

Day Ten: all other inspections are complete, except for the Mosque. It is an uncharacteristic structure - much newer than the others, with fresh paint. The inspectors demand access; the Iraqi official refuses, citing the condition against inspection of
religious sites. (This was the sole condition Iraq insisted upon, and got; there were many editorials in the West applauding the Administration for being sensitive to this particular cultural differences, although some British newspapers noted that American
fundamentalist churches are still permitted to encourage the parishioners to bomb abortion clinics.)

The inspectors insist that this prohibition applied to religious sites in residential areas, not on government facilities. The Iraqis refuse access; the Marines subdue them and enter the facility.

That evening Al-Jazeera broadcasts a tape supplied by the Iraqi government, shot from a distance; it shows American troops pulling Iraqis away from the mosque and subduing those who protest with rifle butts; it shows American troops kicking down the doors to the
mosque and pouring in, guns drawn.

Inspections are suspended for a week while the Iraqis renegotiate the issue of religious facilities on bases.

And the VX the labs had produced six months before are now in a DC apartment, waiting for the email that gives the go-ahead.

________________

Of course, this is all fanciful conjecture, but you get the point. The only way anyone can assure that a facility doesn't currently contain WMD is to tear the thing apart - and even then that doesn't mean that it wasn't making or storing something a few days, or
weeks, or months, or years ago.

The pro-inspections argument seems to believe that if inspectors don't find anything, this means Iraq doesn't have anything.

Others might take reassurance from that. I don't.

[Slaughter]

If you ask me, We should of killed Hussein in the few chances we had.. Like I said, I'm not supporting any war.. I'm not a war sort of person, and I could never kill a person except in defense of myself and my family.

Yes, Capitalism is the cornerstone of America.. I just can't stand microsoft

I, actualy, would also say that Sadam is and evil person.. and I only know half of the bad stuff he's done, but why declare a war when we could just infiltrate Iraq covertly?

I have a friend in the Marines, as I said, and he told me about a guy who was sent to iraq as a sniper of death, and the target was Hussein.. but at the last minute they called off the shot. Why?.. this is a man who should've been dead long ago.

The only reasons I have a problem with this war is 1) I despise the Bush Administration, 2) I'm more of a pacifist, if anything, although I have a violent past *Cough* SirDJ *Cough*, 3) They're saying its only gonna take 30 days (saw that on TV last night, FoxNEWS), didn't they say the same thing about getting Osama.. and its been a year?

I believe we should avenge the death of all the people lost on 9/11 first, by getting Osama's head on a silver platter.. that man definetly need to deserve to die. I say we finish what we've started, then deal with Hussein and Iraq. Like Z said, give it 12 months

[Slaughter]

Day Seven: the barracks are cleared. Stupendous amounts of porn are confiscated.

LOL, thats great, did you add that or was it already there?


I think if they inspect Iraq for anything, of course they won't find anything.. but that also doesn't mean we should go guns blazing into war.. We can't just go war crazy.. we're gonna have to fight differently.. And all this talk of this war only taking 30 days, I'll believe it when it happens, and I really doubt it happens..

Sorry to seem so anti-patriotic in my first post, but War is something that doesn't go well with me.. along with the Economy not being strong, and the corruption in corporate america... So far this administration hasn't done much to bode well with me..

[Slaughter]

Originally posted by [AK]Hylander
I almost feel like hugging Palooka! ALMOST!

Slaughter.. in one post you pretty much disagreed with everything I believe in.

Don't get too close to Pal, he has a gun j/k but I heard the bear hug hurts..

Sorry for being your polar opposite Hy...

Clinton may have been one of the worst, but He did do great things for the economy and the american people.. Granted he shot himself in the foot more than once.. I still think he's done better than both HW and GW Bush.. although there was speculation that Clinton wouldn't have been able to handle what happened 9/11 as well as Bush did.. however, I think he would've done fine... Although, in the long term the only thing Bush has done in response to 9/11 was install a democracry Afghanistan, which isn't bad, but where is Osama's Head and the Silver Platter?

[Slaughter]

Oh, and Pal.. thanks for somewhat setting my straight Much appriciated bud.

[[AK]Hylander]

Slaughter,

As an Economist/Financier... I always ask this question to people who say this:

but He did do great things for the economy and the american people

Just what exactly did he do to the economy that was great? He raised taxes? Timing & Luck are about as far as you can go in terms of impact ANY president has on the economy unless there are significant problems. Clinton happened to be at the head when America "boomed" with productivity & efficiency and the internet bubble. Bush is getting the blame for "corporate greed" in America. Are you telling me this just happened since Bush took over?? NO.. It happened under the nose of the Clinton Administration as well, but because everyone was "prosperous" - nobody cared or even noticed. It was OK because the stock market was strong. BTW, just for reference - The Stock Market does not equate to the economy directly in terms of determining its health. The American media is very good at promoting that flawed information.

What did Clinton do for the American people? Lets see... he taught us about immorality and infidelity. He taught us it was OK for you to commit perjury and get away with it. He taught us it was OK to sell technological secrets as long as you get good campaign contributions. He taught us how to dismantle the US Military capability. Oh yeah, he taught us how to pardon, on the last day of your presidency, all the criminals who make nice donations to your campaign.

But hey, Al Gore invented the internet for us all!